読者です 読者をやめる 読者になる 読者になる

ワルキューレはセーラームーンじゃなくてプリキュア

The whole dancing VF-171 reminded me of the old westerns where the bad guy forces someone to dance by shooting at his feet... :lol: .
I did notice not many fatalities among the giants too. Most attacks were aimed at disabling the mecha than destruction.

I get the whole "naked joy" moments mentioned in the podcast and was glad I listened to it before seeing this so I had some context going in. Hayate discovers his joy of flying a valk and Freyja simply reacting to the joy of singing with the Walkyre.

The crystals in their hair are called Runes, so that will no doubt be significant. I expect they are a naturally occurring crystal similar to the Vajra's fold quartz, or perhaps they are given to them at a certain age of maturity as a symbolic rite of passage. We'll see.
Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 1 - READ 1st POST - Page 3 - Movies and TV Series - Macross World Forums - Page 3

西部劇のイメージへ繋げられるのは面白いなぁで済むけど、「ルン」が”Rune”ってのは気づけなきゃいけなかったか。ということは、ルーンは複数(の形状が)用意されるのかもな。あのダンスシーンそれ自体への感想は、ありえねーとは思うけど、面白いからいいかってかんじだった。

I'm still not sure about this one. I'm going to wait a few more episodes, then stop and see if I want to get the full show in the best possible resolution and sound format when they are finished. When I watched the 1st episode, I thought it was just the preview again. Then I searched online for the opening, which I'm always excited to see, I thought maybe it's at the end for some odd reason. Then I noticed the new material. I like the battles and the music is good. So was the animation and look of the jet towards the end. But I think I want something more adult looking. At least, when I was young, Macross was adult in looks. I can't imagine that this really looks adult to kids these days. And the dancing girls still come off like holograms. I want to see more of their story. Get a better understanding of the group.
Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 1 - READ 1st POST - Page 3 - Movies and TV Series - Macross World Forums - Page 3

まぁ、そういうのは確かにあるかもしれないが。僕の場合は、受け手の僕があまりに幼過ぎて、なんか大人のミサを理解できずに困惑してたよ。キービジュアル?だっけか?のミラージュは、マクロスっぽい画風になってるとは思う。(『The First』のコミカライズ、進行が遅い!)

Posted 07 April 2016 - 04:12 AM
Saruta, on 07 Apr 2016 - 20:48, said:
A careful viewing with many freeze-frames showed that all the actual "superhuman" feats are performed by Mikumo alone. The other girls do pretty much what Sheryl and Ranka could already do by Frontier movies, except now they do it in the open. Oh, and they play to a magical girl image in the process, but so did movie!Ranka

Just because you guys keep repeating this isn't going to make it true. The holographic costume changes we've seen before in Macross were natural and realistic. What we see in Delta is straight up magical girl transformation. They are definitely NOT the same.

This is the problem with the first episode of Delta: so much in it is not plausible. It's outside of my ability to suspend my disbelief. It's not grounded at all. Frontier largely avoided this problem (with a few notable exceptions).
Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 1 - READ 1st POST - Page 4 - Movies and TV Series - Macross World Forums - Page 4

分からんでもない。だがポイントは、「戦場で歌う」という行為が根本的にナンセンスだということを、このデルタではどうやって解決されてるか。結局戦闘は味方の軍任せで自分は好きかって歌ってるだけじゃないかとか、歌っていながら最後は銃で敵を撃ち抜いて終わることのどこが歌なのかとか、そういうことへの総決算が今回では行われる予感が、今回の作り込みにはあると思うし、それを期待してる。

The technology used is the same holographic costume change tech used in Frontier, but of course the ones in Delta are simply designed to look like a magical girl transformation. it is just that how it looks does not sit well with some viewers even though in-universe it is possible given the technology.

そーいう問題じゃないんだ。(僕は気にならんけど、魔法少女っつーかセーラームーンっつーか、プリキュアって言えよぉおおおおおおおおとは思う。プリキュアにおける紫の意味はなぁああああああああああ、ラブぅうううセツナぁああああ、と。)

Excluding Mikumo for the moment, what is unplausible? The girls strike a pose and have a sparkly costume change creep through their body. They are presumably wearing holo-suits, so the only question is where the holographic projectors are, given that this is open space and not a specially prepared stage. A couple of drones could manage that, though? They can also do the shiny W thing by joining hands - something hidden in their sleeves, presumably. And they are trained in height jumping, so was movie!Sheryl.

Mikumo, yes, she pushes the boundaries. A lot. She can control a lot of drones with barely a move of the hand. She can withstand a direct massive rocket hit, protected only by a small force field, and not even get knocked out. I would expect an in-universe explanation. She might even be a robot, and anime robot girls were doing things like that back in 80s.

だからこういう「擁護」はギャグになってしまう。ほほえましいファンだなぁとは思うけど。僕もやっぱりワルキューレの変身はアホだと思う(個人的にはレッドの変身のあの曲線の感じとイエローの溜めのかんじが特に好きかも)。だけど、『アヴェンジャーズ』でロキがぶん回されるシーンみたいなのが許されうるのなら、ある種のコメディとして容認してもいい気がするんだ、ハリウッド風じゃないハリウッド式としてさ。

ところでドローンズの動きは、ある種の鳥の群れのような単純なプログラムで何とかなりそうではあるとは少し思う。

joscasle, on 08 Apr 2016 - 06:07, said:
:) Do the exercise!! ! I already done it, similar aspects very different anime!!! SDFM is more militia oriented, Delta at least in these episode is no at all, its like a rainbow warfare, lots and lots of colors (even the Valks).

I've done the analysis several times... and, apart from Plus, I get the same result every time. Macross Delta is very much in the mold of your typical Macross series. Older fans sometimes cling to this myth of the original series being a gritty war drama, something even Kawamori himself has refuted. As Kawamori put it, Macross is a love story which uses those battles as a backdrop. There's always been an air of strained realism and no shortage of silliness.

I look at Delta's first episode and I see essentially the same thing I saw in the original's first episode. All the classic Macross tropes are present and accounted for. We've got a naturally talented but withdrawn young man who will join the military (or a paramilitary force, whatever Chaos is) to protect a young, slightly selfish girl who dreams of being an idol after falling into the cockpit of a transforming fighter at the outbreak of an interstellar conflict and gradually ends up growing closer both to that young girl and an older, professional woman who he serves alongside.

Almost everything we see in Delta's first episode is building upon an aspect of a previous Macross story. Walkure is essentially another go with the Jamming Birds but with their sh*t together this time. Fold song is anima spiritia all over again, built on terms and tech from both 7 and Frontier. There are hints that the enemy is using songs to drive their ad hoc soldiers into a berserker rage ala Macross II. Delta Platoon's got the usual formula of The Big Brother, The Ace, The Clown, and The Natural, though this time there's two of that last one.

Point is... the visual style has changed somewhat, but that's about all that has changed and it's no more than we would expect from a long-running series like Macross. They update the look to stay current with the times. The substance is very much Macross as we have long known it.

The things people are complaining about are the same things we've seen in an assortment of previous titles, with just some slight differences in how the show presents them.




frothymug, on 08 Apr 2016 - 06:28, said:
However, I think you're off the mark this time when you say that Delta follows the same formula as all the other Macross shows. Those of us who are critical of Delta are telling you that it's not the same; something feels way off point. That's pretty much all it boils down to. Take from that as you will.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'll say that I have yet to see a cogent argument about why they're not the same. Lots of complaints and lots of demonstrably-flawed examples, but I haven't seen anyone table an actual reason for being so very unhappy with the show other than, perhaps, that it's not aimed at the 30 or 40-something "oldtaku" in the west who remember the original as being rather more gritty and dark than it actually was.

It'd be easier to understand the other side of the argument if I had more to go on than just the erroneous carping about magical girls and some nitpicks that are explainable via technologies that are well-established in the universe of the shows. So I'm stuck sitting here going "you all loved this stuff and you suspended disbelief for it in previous shows X, Y, and Z, but it's not OK in this one for no clear reason?".

Macross Δ (Delta) - Mission 1 - READ 1st POST - Page 5 - Movies and TV Series - Macross World Forums - Page 5

デルタのポイントは、この明らかな繰り返しそのものに別の文脈が付加されてることで、これまでのマクロスとは一線を画してる――のではないか?ってのが僕の<del>意見</del>希望的観測。そして、毎度のように起こる「ちょっとした違い」への拒絶反応も、今回のプリキュアは、これまで以上の逸脱だと評価するのが、やっぱりフェアだと思うよ。ただ問題は、どうやってプリキュアを戦場の中で合理的説得力のある形でやるか。そしてそれをやり遂げるために戦場のど真ん中に飛び込ませた。この手法が、マクロスシリーズへのアンチテーゼへまで至ることを願いたい。(何ならその先まで往っちゃってもいけなくないBorderlineですことよ?)